RobbieLad's Reply to Kate4

Bryce (member) Thank you Kate, Tibarn and Star. It is a great pleasure for me to be showing you ATF and trust you feel comfy playing it in future, so it is a two way streeet Thanks Bryce Gary (member) Ty Bryce for spending some time with me tonight, I feel a much better understanding for ATF now Gary! Kate4 (member) Ty Bryce. I did enjoy learning how to play ATF & am very comfortable playing it. Having said that I am very much a traditionalist & enjoy playing 500 Classic which includes misere & open misere. Am very flexible & will play any form of 500 on this great site, but will not play any one form exclusively as I need to, in the immortal words of Monsieur Hercule Poirot, `use my little grey cells' in differing ways. The basic bidding system for ATF works equally well with other forms of this fabulous game 500. So whatever bidding my partner(s) choose is fine with me just as long as I know. Respect, flexibility & communication are key principles in card play and the `game of life!' Have already met, played with & against some fun people &I look forward to meeting & playing with & against more of my fellow 500 devotees! Thanks again, Bryce hope to play ATF with you again soon. Star (member) I am feeling more confidant all the time thankyou so much Bryce. RobbieLad (member) "The basic bidding system for ATF works equally well with other forms of this fabulous game 500" WHAH???? Calling aces at 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11???? Ye gods! Don't try it in a regular CC game or there'll be steam coming out of your p's ears very quickly, while the opposition rub their hands with glee and you plummet down the rankings! I find the bidding in ATF+ to be even more reckless, although you should probably speak to Fe and The 4th about that as they're the experts on that particular form of the game. I don't think the ATF+ button shows up unless you've got Platinum Membership, unless it's changed recently. That in itself is worth paying the extra for though, in my opinion, as there are many other benefits besides access to ATF+ and automatic Elite status. Kate4 (member) Robbie, You misunderstood. The operative word was `basic'. Meaning calling aces at the 6 level. Calling the `bird' at 6NT which has been standard for 500 since Adam was a Lad. I also said I was a` traditionalist.’ This means I prefer 500 as played & loved it for all my life where only the `bird' is called. You have my complete agreement when you say that the ATF bidding system is `reckless’. Bidding aces beyond the 6 level only serves to give the opposition more information than is necessary. To be completely frank, bidding aces at the 6 level also does this & can lead to problems with next call if the opposition passes. My preference is to only call an ace at 6 level if there is also strength in the suit. ATF is a `bidding system or convention only’ for the game 500. It’s the name of a card game. Shouldn’t be confused as such. Same as `ACOL’ is a universal bidding system for the game of Bridge. In Bridge however as the bidding starts at level 1, indicating 6 tricks, there’s a lot more `bidding space’. More info can be exchanged between partners re the shape of the hand & cards held. Therefore it’s of `real’ benefit to call suits, aces & kings at various levels. This `bidding space’ is not available in 500. Therefore the less the opposition know the better. My maxim for most things & this includes the many card games I play is KISS – Keep It Simple, Stupid. I meant what I said. This little black duck is flexible & will adjust `within reason’. That means if a partner prefers, I will call aces at the 6 level, the bird as 6NT, prefer `bird’ call over ace call & strength at the 7 level. Also I understand that if my partner calls 7spade they are looking for misère & 9spade open misère. This appears to be the most used bidding system on this site. Also, out of respect for other players, if I join a table advertised as classic 500, Turbo 500, club classic 500, ATF or Custom, I will play that particular form of the game. I will not ask that they play as I like. As far as I'm ’concerned if any player doesn’t want to play that particular form of the game or use the `bidding system’ accepted as being usual for that room, either don’t join in or play the game as is. I’ve already encounted hostility regarding my preference to play non-ATF. As a result will have made it to some players `will not play’ list. So be it. Robbie, with regard to `platinum member’ Not sure if that was `tongue-in-cheek’. Me, I’m just a member. Why? This is the only 500 site I’ve found. If my paying membership keeps it `alive & kicking’ great. Rankings never bother me they’re subjective only. My self-esteem doesn’t revolve around them but they do provide an added interest. I’ve been fortunate already to have met some like-minded people on this site & have enjoyed many good games, both in the Members only Rooms & the Public rooms. Robbie, hope we get to play with or against each other, think it might be fun. That’s why I play! Steve2 (member) Kate i competely agree i think hmm ok agree with some not all uh never mind Kate4 (member) Steve2, you're obviously a decisive gentleman...perhaps....maybe....unsure...we'll see.....yes? no? Anyone who can make me laugh is ok in my book. RobbieLad (member) Hi Kate. I think you might find my entire post was "tongue-in-cheek"! :) Anyway, welcome aboard and I look forward to a game very soon. I rarely play ATF, being pretty much strictly CC, but each to their own. Anyway, for the benefit of yourself and any other new members, herewith some lowdown on a few site conventions which I hope you'll find helpful. As a general rule (which doesn't apply to all players, and no doubt others will also have stuff to contribute), you'll find the following conventions on the members' side of the site (for once I'm being serious): With the exception of ATF, which is a version perfected by member Bryce, the vast majority of elo games in members, easily 95%-plus, are Club Classic format. The "Classic 500" option is not used by most members because of where Open sits in the bidding table. You might see the odd game of Turbo but very rarely. Custom is sometimes played in non-elo games, where a single player has started solo, or with 2-player, but rarely as a 4-player elo game, and 6-handed games are pretty much never played except when all the participants are a lot drunker than normal. The following applies to CC calling: Most players new to members, myself included, arrive having only ever called the joker at 6 for years, but soon adapt to calling aces once they see the benefit. You will always get the odd individual who steadfastly refuses to adopt the convention at first, but until they eventually see the light, they'll often struggle for decent games as most better players will tend to avoid partnering them. In non-members, calling aces at 6 is less common of course. With the exception of a few decent regular players in nons, that's one of the reasons why the average standard of play in non-members is that much lower. While a small minority of top players - e.g. The 4th and, erm, I'll get back to you on the other names :) - call bird after aces, the majority of regular players tend to call bird first followed by aces in order, at 6. There's also a bit of a weird virus indigenous to New Zealand which used to cause certain inhabitants there to call bird after black aces but before red, or some such. I believe the World Health Organisation have been taking steps to stamp that out and have quarantined most carriers to Stewart Island, but there are still very occasional outbreaks on the North Island. I'm guilty myself of that at times, where if I have first bid with both bird and ace of spades, and a very strong hand which I expect to win the bidding, I'll call the ace first to see what everyone else has got, but that's an exception and we all have our foibles, some more than others. Depending on other calls, it's sometimes pertinent to call the bird at 7 also, but generally not aces. The exception to that is in NT bidding, where, as long as you and your partner are on the same wavelength, you can get up to all sorts of mischief calling aces, kings and even queens right up to 10, and you'll no doubt come across that in due course. When it works it works well and when it fails it fails spectacularly. As a general rule though, I'd forget everything you've been taught about bidding aces at 7 and 8 in ATF, when playing CC. Be very careful with interpretation of 7 spades calls, as it doesn't necessarily mean that your p wants Misere. It can be a call-off by your p if you've called an ace or bird and they have nothing, or it could mean your p actually wants 7 spades. The only way to know (or nearly know) is by getting to know your p's game. There's a thread in forum called "Who calls 7 spades for Misere?", but even half of that is a pack of lies, I've found in practice. Some players will jump to an 8 spades strength call to avoid confusion, which is good as long as you can make 8 tricks of course. You're quite correct that 9 spades straight up means you want Open. Many players will "make their own way" to Misere without flagging it up so-obviously by using 7 spades. This may involve lying about aces and, less commonly, the bird. Some on site (e.g. Wayne) consider calling 6NT without joker to be a hanging offence. Others have been known to do it with gay abandon as a stepping stone to Misere. While it would be impertinent to name and shame any individuals, one such culprit, and a regular #1 to boot tut tut, has got a two-letter name beginning with "F". (And I used to do it myself, to be fair, until Wayne told me off.) Under normal circúmstances, I consider my p's failure to call an ace (or worse still, bird), whether they're strong in that suit or not, to be a cardinal sin worthy of expulsion from the site and being forced to do six months community service playing Snap with 3-year-olds. I had a game recently where my p (one of my favourite and regular p's in fact, which threw me all the more), opened up with a jump bid of 8 diamonds or hearts, not declaring that they had the bird. The opposition went Open. I had a nailed-on game-winning 10 spades hand had I known where the bird was, but had to pass. In the end it cost us the game. Obviously there are exceptions to not calling aces etc, but in my opinion, hiding such information from your partner will cost you more games than win you them, in addition to not doing much for your popularity as a potential p and gaining you a reputation as something of a dodgy bidder, for those who make a habit of it. However, once your p has passed, bid how and what you want. While it's less common, some will call their strongest ace, in preference to a weaker lower ace, given a choice; Lil2 will use this method at times, for example, another very good player, so "lowest ace first" is not 100% across the site. Close to the back door, many players call strength at 6 rather than aces. How close depends on the player. Abba, for example, one of the site's best, states clearly on her profile that she calls strength below -250, while some equally-good players will still call bird and aces conventionally even at -490. Ergo, there's no site consensus on this, but it's something to be aware of. I wouldn't worry about not calling aces for fear of getting left on a 6 call, because it's convention with most players to call you off, using 7 spades if they have nothing better. Notable exceptions are Gollum, who hates using call-offs (he's another top player so that's his prerogative), or where a 7 call would set the opposition up for a game-winning Misere bid. As always, "the scores dictate the bidding". But in general, while it's sometimes best to get left on 6, it's more commonly a right pain in the ar$e when you've got a cracking and/or potentially game-winning hand, in my humble opinion. Hope this hasn't confused you too much, and always remember, it's okay to lie sometimes. And automatons rarely make it to #1; ask Huey, Luey and Duey. As there are many players better and more experienced than myself on the site, you may well find others who will disagree with some or all of what I've put, but anyway, that's how I see it. Somebody has obviously stolen Steve's password, if you thought the person you were talking to was a gentlemen. It was probably Toby you were conversing with, in fact. Bit of a long post, I've just noticed. Bryce, what's the name of your publisher? Good luck!

RobbieLad's description of a "finesse"

1. Your partner leads low,

2. Next player goes lowish or offsuit,

3. You have both the ace and the queen, and play the queen.

You stand a 2/3 chance (more or less) of winning the trick with the queen, hence keeping the ace for a further trick.

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Daffer's Addendum: Finesses work MUCH better with uncalled aces.

Another scenario:

1. You have both the ace (uncalled) and the queen, and you have the lead play the queen.

2. If your opponent in the second seat has the king s/he may hold back from playing it in hope that their partner has it or in fear that the other opponent has it.

Toby's Top 16 Tips

A rarity worth preserving - a sensible, coherent post from the dawg!

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1. Make friends with the pass button (a dafferism).

2. Score dictates bidding.

3. Fortune favours the brave.

4. Generally play out trumps if your side has the bid.

5. Generally never lead trumps back at opposition who won the bid.

6. Third plays high (ie 2nd often can play low/finesse).

7. Fourth plays to win the trick.

8. Never (rarely) leave partner on an ace call - if nothing else call 7spds.

9. 9 spds for open - call ur lowest suit or 9NT to signal bird/high.

10. Be careful when finessing.

11. When in opposition and trumps are still in play, first discard is generally to short yourself in the hope that your partner wins the trick and leads back.

12. Don't lead the joker first trick when you have won a NT bid.

13. If your partner has an Ace, and you have a low and the king, risk leading the king first and then lead to your partners ace and hope he has a few more tricks up his sleeve.

14. Never lose an unforced misere.

15. Dont call 8 if u cant defend open.

16. At the beginning of the game, try to not be first to go negative unnecessarily.

Suggestion Box

If you have any posts on the great game feel free to post them as comments to this topic and I'll consider them for publication.

Lee's No Trumps Play/Bidding

by Lee

How often have you seen two players with a good no trumps hand bouncing back and forward in the bidding without telling each other anything about their hands? E.g. one bids 6nt, the other bids 7nt, the next call is 8nt, ect.

How often have you had a good no trumps hand that was only missing a couple of key cards that could have allowed you to call slam? If only your partner was able to call you those cards, if they had them?
What is the highest point scoring bid in 500? No trumps, of course.

Most players follow conventions when bidding a suit bid. There are even basic calling conventions for misere and open misere play. Yet they follow no bidding rules when calling a no trumps hand – why is this? It is, after all, a unique form of play in 500. As unique as any of the other types of calls available.

All of the above are good reasons why some simple rules of bidding should be followed when calling a no trumps hand. Like any form of play in 500, the idea is to share as much information about your hand with your partner so as to maximize your bid.

First Golden Rule – When does a no trumps bid begin?
Please note there are no set rules, as two partners may settle on their own signs for when the “trigger” for a no trumps bid begins. However the easiest way when getting used to no trumps bidding is that a secondary call of no trumps between two partners starts a no trumps bid.

Example:
P1: 6nt
P2 7D
P3 7nt
P4 pass

Player 3, (P1’s partner) has made a secondary call of no trumps. He/She is announcing that they have a good no trumps hand and want to definitely head in that direction in the bid.

Further examples:
P1: 6C
P2 7H
P3 7nt
P4 pass
P1 8nt
Player 1, (P3’s partner) has just made a secondary call of no trumps.

Second Golden Rule – What do I start bidding?

When a secondary call of no trumps is made, partners should start bidding their aces, lowest suit first.
Bear in mind there is no need to call aces that may have already been called at the 6 level – your partner is already aware of them and it is not advancing the no trumps bid.

Simple Example:
P1: 6nt
P2 7D
P3 7nt
P4 pass
P1 8S (I’ve got the ace of spades)
P2 Pass
P3 8nt
P1 Pass (I’ve called all my aces)

In the above example, P1 has pushed the bid up by one trick by calling the ace of spades, but why shouldn’t they when they are calling a certain trick?

Imagine if P3 has an excellent run in certain suits and was only missing the ace of spades to call 10nt – He/she wouldn’t have let the bid rest at 8nt and most certainly would have bid slam.

Note that both partners have an opportunity to bid their aces and should do so.

Example:
P1: 6nt
P2 7S
P3 7nt
P4 pass
P1 8S (I’ve got the ace of spades)
P2 Pass
P3 8D (I’ve got the ace of diamonds)
P1 8H (I’ve got the ace of hearts)
P3 8nt (No more aces to bid)
P1 9C (Guess what – I’ve got the ace of clubs too)
P3 9nt

In the above example, neither partner should be left in any doubt as to what a safe lead is. Both should also be in an excellent position to work out whether a 10nt bid is possible.

Note that P1 has pushed the bid up 2 tricks (to 9nt) by calling two aces – but again, if his/her partner’s 7nt bid was realistic, then this is no problem as P1 has simply called two more certain tricks.

P1 has also made any Kings/Queens held by P3 in these suits look particularly good as well.

Third Golden Rule – NO ONE GETS LEFT ON AN ACE BID!!!!!

In all of the above examples, once the no trumps bid has commenced both partners call all aces they have but NEVER pass when an ace is called to them.

This is a simple but vital rule – once you’ve exhausted all your bids, you NEVER pass, you call no trumps. Your partner may continue to call their hand after this – always respond with a no trumps bid, NEVER pass.

Fourth Golden Rule – Don’t up the bid by one if you’re calling a card that’s already been called

If you’ve already called an ace before the no trumps bid commenced, don’t call it again if it is going to lift the bid by one. Your partner may have already taken this card into account when calling 7nt or above to trigger the no trumps bid.

There’s no problem in calling it again if it isn’t going to lift the bid by one though.

Calling a run

What if you have the ace/king (or more) in a suit and you want to call it?
In a no trumps bid, if these cards haven’t already been called, you are calling two more certain tricks, so call it!

Example
P1: 6nt
P2 pass
P3 7nt
P4 pass
P1 9D (I’ve got the Ace and King of diamonds)
P3 9nt

Note that if P3 had the ace of hearts, there would have been an opportunity to call it also.

What if P1 held the Ace, King, Queen, Jack and a few more smaller diamonds?

Between two players who understand these simple bids and follow the basic rules, there should be no reason why P1 wouldn’t call 10D, and P3 should respond with an ace of hearts bid (10H) or 10nt.

If P3 responded with 10H, P1 must call 10nt. But note the ease of play because of a few simple calls. P1 plays out his/her diamond run then is left in no doubt what to lead – a heart.

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(a further post from Lee on this topic)
"Most players follow conventions when bidding a suit bid. There are even basic calling conventions for misere and open misere play. Yet they follow no bidding rules when calling a no trumps hand – why is this? It is, after all, a unique form of play in 500. As unique as any of the other types of calls available."

Grumma and I had a good understanding (we did have our occasional disasters). Take the following example:

Grumma: 6S
Lee: 6NT
Grumma: 7NT
Lee: 8S
Grumma 8NT
Lee: Pass

Grumma knew I wouldn't have been calling a suit bid (a definate NO NO when your partner annouces to you they want a NT bid). She knew I wouldn't advance the bid by one unless I was calling a further winner. She knew I was calling the King of Spades.

We got the bid in a cakewalk, which was pretty typical for our NT play.

To me it was a very simple and risk free bid. I daresay though, the prospect of calling a mere King at 8 would make most players baulk. I don't know why. In NT Kings are of the same standing as bauers in a suit bid. A lot of players think nothing of calling a bauer at 8.

IMPORTANT: Anyone who wants to follow these basic NT bidding conventions, please tell me before we partner/play. If you haven't, I won't know and will interpret your calls in the othodox way. Disaster is likely to ensue.

Craig's Pizza Oven

This man has his priorities just right!

Stoppers

Stopper (plug), also known as a cork, a plug or a bung (Wikipedia)

The other night my partner and I were leading a game 320 points vs the opponents -480. My partner started the bidding by passing and the opp on my right called 6 spades. I didn't have the bird so called 6NT - what I call a "stopper" bid.

The opp on my left sensibly passed fearing a game-winning misere and so did the other opp. I didn't get my 6NT and the opp on my right said BL!

It seemed a strange comment as I had achieved my objective of stopping the opps calling the bird and easily winning a 7 or 8 call moving them safely away from the backdoor. I explained the rationale for my 6NT call to be told it was "BS" by my aggrieved opp. Ah well, 'twas water of this duck's back and the opps proved my point by backdooring themselves next hand - LOL.

"Stoppers" are a valuable bidding strategy worth adding to any player's bidding arsenal.

Lee's Bidding Basics

I'd ask some of the newer players to just consider the following issues and yes, I'm trying to brief...

BIDDING ACES AT SIX

In any 7 or 8 call (your strength) you are going to take, on average, around 4/5 tricks with your trumps (all things going well). This means you will need to take at least 2/3 in "offsuit" tricks.

If you have no idea what offsuit aces your partner holds, or you don't communicate your aces to your partner, significant disavantages will result. You will have little, if any, idea of what to keep or throw out if you get the bid and kitty ("shortsuiting"). We've all seen how Huey, Luey and Duey keep one of every suit to lead in offsuit and how disasterous it is. Often you'll also find you've underbidded a good hand through being completely in the dark as to how many tricks you might have - taking both your hand and your partners hand into account.

It's for these reasons the orthodox style of play is to bid your aces at 6, before calling your strength.

What holds some players back is the fear that "I'll get left on it". The accepted convention (certainly on this site) is that no one gets left on their six call. If you don't have a viable 7 bid, call your partner off their 6 bid with 7 Spades. Expect the same of your partner.

If you get left on 7 Spades, don't fret. It may be the 7 call that your partner wanted. Even if it turns pear shaped, remember 140 points is only 20 - 100 points more than a 6 bid and its a small price to pay as insurance against losing a good 7 or 8 bid.

BIDDING STRENGTH

Just some small advice - be realistic, unless you're forced by the scoreboard to do otherwise. In a Red suit bid there's 13 trumps, in Black there's 12. Think about how many you have, how strong they are and how many you're likely to have left after you've bled all of the trumps out of the opposing players.

If you have a bauer and three rags - the math and probability is totally against you. The probable scenario is "murderation". It often takes up to 4 or 5 leads to get the trumps out and you aren't going to win them all anyway. Even worse, an Ace with a few rags just plainly isn't a strength bid (unless you're forced to do so by the scoreboard).

Bidding strength in an unforced situation on the hope that you'll pick up two or three high trumps in the kitty is just plainly silly. The likely scenario is murderation.

CALLING THE JOKER

Always call the joker at 6. Always. It's a very important card in a suit bid and the ultimate card in a no trumps bid. It's the key.

Again, what holds some players back is the fear that "I'll get left on 6NT". The accepted convention (certainly on this site) is that no one gets left on a 6NT bid. If you don't have a viable 7 bid, call your partner off their 6NT bid with 7 Spades. Expect the same of your partner.

Again, if you get left on 7 Spades, don't fret. It may be the 7 call that your partner wanted. Even if it turns pear shaped, remember 140 points is only 20 points more than a 6NT bid and its a small price to pay as insurance against losing a good 7 or 8 bid.

AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, BLEED ALL TRUMPS BEFORE PLAYING OFFSUIT

Try to get as many of your opponents' trumps off them before leading your offsuit. If you have the high trump cards, keep playing them until the opposition have no more trumps. Don't keep leading them if you're only taking trumps off your partner - you're eliminating them from possibly taking a cheap trick or two by trumping the opposition's good offsuit.

Nothing is sillier than seeing a good offsuit ace that is definately worth a trick getting trumped by the opposition.

WORK CO-OPERATIVELY WITH YOUR PARTNER, NOT AGAINST THEM

Co-operative play starts with the bidding. It's easier to win a 500 bid playing with 20 cards as opposed to 10. Approach the bidding from the footing that your objective is to share as much information about your hand with your partner as you can. You have a better chance of winning and also getting maximum value for your bid.

Conflicting bids - think carefully about overbidding your partners red call with a black one, or vice versa. There is an old maxim - those who overbid, must get.

Always call into your partner's hand rather than against it - this is the situation where one player wants (for instance) 7D and their partner wants 7H. Yeah, sure, you have this real pretty hearts hand. So what. The game is about taking a bid, not which one of the partners gets the kitty. Think carefully about whether your pretty hearts might be more useful as offsuit tricks and whether a better bid is 8D instead of 7H.

Also, discussing bidding styles with your partner prior to a bid is much better than discussing it as a post mortem of "what went wrong". If you are a fan of the 7S for misere or 9S for open bids, tell your partner up front if you're not sure they know.

Be open to polite suggestions of how you might improve your play. Don't be needlessly argumentative or defensive. I've certainly learnt heaps off the permanent (and not so permanent) fixtures on the site.



I recommend in the strongest terms that newer players read the information at:

play500.blogspot.com/2008/05/my-500-top-10.html

With the qualification that some of this player's tips (like "avoid 7S for misere calls") are probably fairly described as personal preferences that you can eventually make your own mind up about.

Calling 7 Spades for Misere

A lively conversation between Lee & Toby worth saving from Richard's auto-delete:

http://www.play500online.com/500/forum.jsp?Forum=Forum&ID=3360 - do they get paid by the word?

Lee:

No. [Calling 7 spades for miser] creates untold confusion when you have a genuine spades hand.

Gabriella:

in that instance l would call 8spades straight up to prevent any confusion Court: Agree with gabs Lee: That creates as many problems as it solves. Firstly, what if you have a viable 7 hand but not really a viable 8 hand? You're overbidding merely to accomodate a "tricky" 7S call for misere. Secondly, depending on the state of play, we are often quite reluctant to go to an 8 bid before you know whether your opponent/s are looking for an open bid. Going straight to 8S can hand them a gold brick. Finally, the "straight to 8S to avoid confusion" is a tactic that Huey, Luey and Duey adopt after a 6NT bid - I'm asking (tongue in cheek) are we as skilful, imaginative and creative as the bots.....on second thoughts, don't answer that. I dislike the 7S for misere call because it tells me NOTHING about my partners hand. When you're down and defending, blocking etc., or even when you're looking for a potential game winning bid, the presence of one bower, even a king or queen in offsuit can be all important. My own view is that I will give a bid, even if its a weak one, before resorting to the negative (and I don't mean that in a pejorative sense) forms of play like misere and open. With all respect to the misere/open players, I've seen it dominate some players complete outlook on playing 500 - to the point where a 7S call seems to be the two out of every three bids, followed by the inevitable misere/open call. It seems to me that the thinking becomes infected along these lines: I've got a poor hand, I just can't bring myself to hit that pass button, I know, I'll call misere. I see so many poor misere calls going down that seem to be driven by this kind of outlook. Amongst skilled and experienced players, miseres and opens often go down.. On the odd occasion I've enjoyed the reaction of the misere/open junkie who retorts "I was unlucky". A favourite partner of mine (Gollum) and I once adopted a deliberate strategy when playing known misere/open junkies. When the 7S or 9S call was given, we would call misere or open just to deprive the misere/open junkie of their "fix". It was illuminating to watch the frustration levels on these players ratchet up to punching the computer screen levels. Any other player on this site who wants to adopt a similar tactic when partnering me should let me know. Toby: Net still down so I'll come 2 the defense of 7sps as the site isn't iPhone compatible. A 7spds bid is a highly useful bit of information and disinformation. It is a bid. That says enough. In a tight spot (Lee has none left) a 7spds bid let's ur partner know that you'll take the bid to open, just call them off and keep in the bidding. The most effective countervailing force to a strong hand is a genuine weak hand. someone has to stay in it so it also is a marker that you are generally weak (which you all know that, along with craven, I mam). 2 bits of information. My partner can overbid my call but then knows the risks. Another team can steal it to miser but if my ps stayed in, the ops better have the bollocks to call open. 9/10 times I'll take down a dodgy open so that bluff is just that. In terms of disinformation, the 7spds call is the penultimate, after 9spds. So many times ive called 7spds, ops stolen to mis and left me on an 8 bid I wanted, often leading to front door. It also blocks your opponents positive play if you want a positive 8, 9 or 10 bid. I think this debate is too narrow: we use 'gb' or 'bl' too freely. If there are people with retarded limbic systems who can't regulate their impulse control and must steal the kit and lose repeatedly unforced, then I suggest new 'discourtesous' and 'impolite' consolances such as 'bb', 'ss' or 'kw' :) Yes games can seem 'spoilt' by misereres or kitty trollopes but that's the hand ur dealt and new tactics, such as homegirl#2 and dafts, are needed. Lee: O defender of the 7 Spades faithful…. At least you have a rationale. I doubt if many others have thought it through like this. I’ll say at the outset there are certain advantages attaching to the 7 Spades for misere bidders, I’ve always held the view that the advantages are outweighed by the disadvantages. I don’t accept that the 7 Spades for misere has some special aura about it that produces significant tactical or bluffing advantages. It has no more or less tactical advantages than any other well thought out bid. I can think of just a few in a short space of time…if my partner has passed and I have nothing, I’ll call the bird just to throw doubt into the oppositions mind. If I’m left on it it’s a cheap block. If I truly want a red bid, bid black to thwart the oppositon’s bid and if they overcall you, then you are set for your preferred bid. Misere may be an option through all these permutations. These are all alternative ways of getting to ends that are said to be the advantages of calling 7 Spades for misere. On balance, the things that sway me are: - there are alternative ways of getting to misere without calling 7 Spades - 7 spades for misere eliminates one bid of a positive nature due to the confusion it creates - A well thought out bid can create just as much confusion and disinformation as 7 Spades for misere - I’ve seen so many slam hands that were only missing a high (and uncalled) bower or even a King in offsuit. Slam downs open…shouldn’t the first objective be to see if its “on”? - By lying doggo on whether you want misere or not, you hold the element of surprise and often prevent your bid being stolen and also have the option of passing if you can take down a stolen misere/open bid by the opposition. I think players should stay flexible with their bidding to deal with the exigencies of the scoreboard and cards in play in a particular hand. I’ve used the 7 Spades for misere bid where I have a hand like Toby’s personal life…..that is a solitary Queen surrounded by companions, none of which is over 10. I just don’t use it as some kind of panacea in response to a difficult bidding situation. It’s good to have the debate..players can make their own minds up what they prefer. Just tell me if you call 7 Spades for misere because even though I don’t like it, I’ll always call a partner who uses it off 7 Spades. Just remember though, I’ve always believed that those who fail in getting unforced miseres should be pelted mercilessly with urine trough soap blocks, then flogged over the head into delirium with big rubber 14 inch sex toys. The 4th: Listening to you two bounce off each other is a treat. Like Derek and Clive / Mandrake and Worf / Roy and H.G. Nelson / Fangs and Cass Great to see this winning combination back in action. Lee: "I remember a game this past week where Lee's partner tried to sneak to misere through bluff bidding. I stole the misere, Lee called 8 following his p's bid and was sunk out the back door. This fundamental and systematic failing of dodgy or false 6/7 bids WILL be mercilessly exploited by your opposition." Tobes, this has everything to do with the seating of the players and nothing to do with the 7S for misere debate. Are you saying that if my p had of called 7S for misere that you wouldn't have stolen the misere bid anyway???? I don't see how this isolated event (you don't tell us what the scoreline was) advances the case- at best its a neutral situation. With all respect, I'm not inclined to support my view by reference to an isolated game "last week" that might support my position. If you were going to be fair and objective about it, I suspect you'd need to do a qualitative analysis of the two differing styles over maybe 1000 games. Supporting your argument with the isolated events of last week is really like John Maynard Keynes advancing his general theory of money and inflation by reference to the price of asparagus at Coles "last week". "Sneaking to misere and open through false or black flag calls is a recipe for disaster which totally negates any benefit. Though with some players I have to sneak, there runs always the risk of someone else snatching it, unless I actually have the ace on 6 or the bird I actually call." How is it any different to the flashing neon sign that the 7S for misere call is? Can you elaborate on how that style prevents the risk of the misere bid being stolen? I'd of thought it actually enhances that risk. The risk of the bid being stolen is completely equal no matter what style is used, my preference is to not take out a full page ad that I want misere by calling 7S. My view is that it reduces the risk of the bid being stolen, the degree of which I accept is open to debate. Let's face it Tobes, there are situations a plenty where a misere bid will be pinched whether you like it or not. I've found through experience its the standard bluff bid for any team on 250 plus points. Again Tobes, at the very best this is a neutral point. "there are alternative ways of getting to misere without calling 7 Spades: fatally flawed. often the false call is either in the suit or the opposite that undoes the misere bid." I never advocated "false calls" as the norm, I said call your hand first, even if it is weak. You have to be unlucky not to have an Ace or a bauer with a few rags to call. When you are that unlucky, even I will consider a range or responses...a black flag bid, a steal bid or even the 7S for misere bid. And always the maxim "bid to the scoreboard" applies, I'm not saying give a weak bid if you don't need to. It's true that where you might be calling a weak hand, the best cards of the bid will, theoretically, be distributed through three other hands, two of which are against you. The odds are against you. But as 500 is a game of chance, there is the prospect of your partner utilising your meagre offerings, even if its in the alternative colour to your call, that is they might call 8H in response to your weak 7D. They might hope for some support in offsuit D's as well, even if its a King or Queen. "7 spades for misere eliminates one bid of a positive nature due to the confusion it creates: when balanced through the frequency of misere to genuine 7(only) spds the benefits for having a '7spds = call me off' with '7spds = 140points' is significantly greater" Yes you get 140 points for a genuine 7S. But its a 100 more for each bid above it Tobes as we all know. When you point it out like that, its forces me to reconsider my views. I'd go as far as to say bogus 7S calls for misere calls do significant damage to calls in an entire suit due to the confusion. Seen many a player cussing because they didn't really know whether their potential 8, 9 or even 10S bid to block or defeat open, or win the game, was really on. The "frequency of misere" also needs to be qualified. I take it what you're referring to there is the frequency of misere bids, as opposed the frequency of successful misere bids, which is a completely different thing. You'd need to demonstrate (again, possibly over a reasonable sample, say 1000 games) that the frequency of successful misere bids outweighs the losses. I can only speculate on my impressions and experience, without any hard statistics. That impression is that amongst experienced players, unforced miseres and opens go down slightly more often than what they get up. "A well thought out bid can create just as much confusion and disinformation as 7 Spades for misere: true - if you know YOU will take the bid, be it mis, and 8/9 call or open, then create as much disinformation as you want. Creating confusion through false 6 bids which undermines your partners confidence in you and your bidding is not worth it." Again Tobes, you're taking small part of the argument and trying to elevate it to being the core principle to suit your response. I never said that false 6 bids are the norm, or the tricky way to get to misere. You have to be unlucky not to have a genuine ace or even weak strength bid. If you haven't got an orthodox bid and you want misere, it's those isolated situations where you may need to be crafty, always remembering that the scoreboard dictates the bidding. My style of play (love it, hate it, rip it to pieces if you will) is that if I've got a decent low run hand, I'd prefer to call 9S for open than give a misleading false bid for misere. So the (rare, I would argue) occasions where a false or misleading bid would be used by me to get to misere would be: 1. No possible orthodox call on my hand. 2. Might get misere, not confident of open. 3. Scoreboard dictates that I bid. Rarely found myself in this situation. But even so, I've called say for instance 6D on the king of diamonds. Yes it can confuse my p, but its equally a giggle when the opposition bid winner short suits against this bogus Ace call only to finf their p has it. Disinformation cuts both ways. "I’ve seen so many slam hands that were only missing a high (and uncalled) bower or even a King in offsuit. Slam downs open…shouldn’t the first objective be to see if its “on”?: out of the wash, I've seen very few slam hands assisted by open communication of a bauer or a king through this method, and many more lose through it. If you have a 7+ or 8+ hand and you need to block through a slam bid, bid it and let luck direct the bid. Misleading bids (ie. weak 7 suit bid leading to 8/9/10 bid that loses) is too common." Scoreboard dictates the bidding. Never said always call a weak hand. If you've called a weak hand in the hope of getting misere when you really didn't need to, then your playing poorly and nothing in this debate will help you. If you have a genuine low run hand and no orthodox bid to give, and the scoreboard doesn't dictate that you should bid, then on balance you're better off calling 9S for open for the reasons I've given above (if the open was truly on). If the scoreboard doesn't dictate you bid and you think you have misere but not open and no othodox bid to give, maybe you should reconsider the strength of your misere bid - if its got some gaps its more probable than not that experienced players are going to take it down. Make friends with the pass button. The situations where I'd call a weak hand in preference to 7S for misere are: 1. Scoreboard dictates that I bid 2. Scoreboard means that the ultimate bid will be 9, open or 10. One team will be forced into a block of some kind. 3. I have a possible scatchy misere. In those situations, you can't discount the possibity of actually getting a misere bid in, which should suggest to your p "dont rely to heavily on prior bids" as much as the 7S for misere bids does. "By lying doggo on whether you want misere or not, you hold the element of surprise and often prevent your bid being stolen and also have the option of passing if you can take down a stolen misere/open bid by the opposition: see afore retorts." Nothing in the "afore retorts" really makes a dent on this proposition. You always hold an element of surprise by not taking out the full page ad that 7S for misere is, though I accept the degree of surprise is something that can be debated. "Dodgy false 6 bids and weak 7 bids will work every now and again, but will be mercilessly exploited by experienced and/or ruthless oppositions. 1-2/10 times it might work, but on the big plays will let you down more often than not. Most significantly, it does undermine confidence and sews the seeds of doubt between you and your partner." If the scoreboard dictates that I bid and it turns pear shaped, my hope is that my partner understands that I would would prefer to give a weak bid than no bid, or a bid that tells them nothing about my hand. If I constantly give unforced weak calls on the hope of calling misere, then my partner is not only entitled to lose confidence in me, they're entitled to refuse to play with me. In an unforced situation, if you think you might have a scratchy misere but not open, and no orthodox call to give, think about making friends with the pass button. If your misere doesn't have the same prospects in open, think carefully about - the weakness in it is likely to be exploited by good players just as easily as if it were an open. We are consensus ad idem about one thing Tobes. I don't think any of us (including me) will be assisted in improving play by automaton responses like "blp". Polite discussion amongst players about what went wrong should be possible. As for "ss", well you know it won't ruffle me but some of the more sensitive flowers might get in a flap LOL. Btw 4th I disagree. Its more like watching Mr Fawlty and Manuel...after all, Tobes is from Barcelona Toby: Stealing: Not saying either is steal proof. However, with 7spds bid, your partner knows you have a weak hand and that will inform their bid – if stolen and in a tight spot or a position of strength, your partner can make an informed decision to either leave, or push an open if you would prefer to see the opponents hand to take them down. The risk of stealing may be equal, but once stolen your position is stronger as you know the basic pattern of card distribution. 7spds informs, bluff deceives. Call your hand: Calling your hand first, even if weak, is the undoing of many misere bids. This informs the opposition twice over to your vulnerabilities. Bidding is communication – in the end it’s going to come down to your own inclinations. I’d hazard (no, no quantification has be undertaken) that the yes no split by members is around 1:1. With experienced members it’s probably 1:2. Peeps who don’t will continue to do so and those who do will. I ‘believe’ that as a call, 7spd call meaning ‘don’t leave me on it’ is much more useful than a call your hand bid or a fluffy bluff. Though I see merit both, as a 7spder, I’m lucky that I can break the rule and not use 7spds. Face it you walking public health threat, deep down in your incontinence product you know 7spds is a superior strategy with much inbuilt flexibility and crucially, clarity. ________ Lee, just read what you wrote in it's entirety. A few points: how many players on the site call with your level of sophistication? Def less than 20, prob less than 10 well. Given the a) range of partners with their ai) range of experience and aii) range of skill; diversity of calling (don't call aces, don't call bird, don't call aces or bird, don't call misere open etc) and b) due to accepted rotations peeps don't get a great chance at refining bidding with individual players with their individual strengths and accompained heuristics. As a default the clarity of 7spds is possibly more universal than not. I'd suggest your beef is less with 7spds and more generally about standard of bidding. I'd be the first to admit the names of c) players and d) player combos who are superior generally in their e) calling and f) play. This is now getting towards the totality of bidding where the 7spds or not fits in which again leads me to question the accepted default of ALWAYS rotating partners. I'd admit the superiority of your method of calling as long as all players are on the same page. In some situations my partners don't call 7spds and respect that I do and both methods aren't necessarily mutually exclusive in a game - I know their 7spds bid is strength, they know mine is 'don't leave me on it.' I know 'cheating' will always be a concern - legitimately or for Milo and Thomas, part of their paranoid delusion - and there are benefits from not being stuck with a new or crap player. I'd personally enjoy the opportunity to play with fixed partners for a few games to learn/apply and consolidate learning the intricacies of a fixed partner for a few games. Not suggesting changing status quo but every now and then not rotate where all players are comfortable with their partners and the fact that some may want the opportunity to discuss the hand in some detail afterwards. Lee: Tobes The points you make about: 1. Current standards of calling 2. Current levels of sophistry in bidding are of such merit they deserve a fresh post rather than to get lost in this one. I say that without implicitly or explicity accepting your comments on my own standard of play/bidding. I'm going to start a new one on the point.