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Thank you Kate, Tibarn and Star. It is a great pleasure for me to be showing you ATF and trust you feel comfy playing it in future, so it is a two way streeet
Thanks Bryce |
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Ty Bryce for spending some time with me tonight, I feel a much better understanding for ATF now
Gary! |
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Ty Bryce. I did enjoy learning how to play ATF & am very comfortable playing it. Having said that I am very much a traditionalist & enjoy playing 500 Classic which includes misere & open misere. Am very flexible & will play any form of 500 on this great site, but will not play any one form exclusively as I need to, in the immortal words of Monsieur Hercule Poirot, `use my little grey cells' in differing ways. The basic bidding system for ATF works equally well with other forms of this fabulous game 500.
So whatever bidding my partner(s) choose is fine with me just as long as I know.
Respect, flexibility & communication are key principles in card play and the `game of life!'
Have already met, played with & against some fun people &I look forward to meeting & playing with & against more of my fellow 500 devotees!
Thanks again, Bryce hope to play ATF with you again soon. |
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| I am feeling more confidant all the time thankyou so much Bryce. |
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"The basic bidding system for ATF works equally well with other forms of this fabulous game 500"
WHAH???? Calling aces at 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11???? Ye gods! Don't try it in a regular CC game or there'll be steam coming out of your p's ears very quickly, while the opposition rub their hands with glee and you plummet down the rankings!
I find the bidding in ATF+ to be even more reckless, although you should probably speak to Fe and The 4th about that as they're the experts on that particular form of the game. I don't think the ATF+ button shows up unless you've got Platinum Membership, unless it's changed recently. That in itself is worth paying the extra for though, in my opinion, as there are many other benefits besides access to ATF+ and automatic Elite status. |
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Robbie, You misunderstood. The operative word was `basic'. Meaning calling aces at the 6 level. Calling the `bird' at 6NT which has been standard for 500 since Adam was a Lad. I also said I was a` traditionalist.’ This means I prefer 500 as played & loved it for all my life where only the `bird' is called.
You have my complete agreement when you say that the ATF bidding system is `reckless’. Bidding aces beyond the 6 level only serves to give the opposition more information than is necessary. To be completely frank, bidding aces at the 6 level also does this & can lead to problems with next call if the opposition passes. My preference is to only call an ace at 6 level if there is also strength in the suit.
ATF is a `bidding system or convention only’ for the game 500. It’s the name of a card game. Shouldn’t be confused as such. Same as `ACOL’ is a universal bidding system for the game of Bridge. In Bridge however as the bidding starts at level 1, indicating 6 tricks, there’s a lot more `bidding space’. More info can be exchanged between partners re the shape of the hand & cards held. Therefore it’s of `real’ benefit to call suits, aces & kings at various levels. This `bidding space’ is not available in 500. Therefore the less the opposition know the better.
My maxim for most things & this includes the many card games I play is KISS – Keep It Simple, Stupid.
I meant what I said. This little black duck is flexible & will adjust `within reason’. That means if a partner prefers, I will call aces at the 6 level, the bird as 6NT, prefer `bird’ call over ace call & strength at the 7 level. Also I understand that if my partner calls 7spade they are looking for misère & 9spade open misère. This appears to be the most used bidding system on this site.
Also, out of respect for other players, if I join a table advertised as classic 500, Turbo 500, club classic 500, ATF or Custom, I will play that particular form of the game. I will not ask that they play as I like. As far as I'm ’concerned if any player doesn’t want to play that particular form of the game or use the `bidding system’ accepted as being usual for that room, either don’t join in or play the game as is.
I’ve already encounted hostility regarding my preference to play non-ATF. As a result will have made it to some players `will not play’ list. So be it.
Robbie, with regard to `platinum member’ Not sure if that was `tongue-in-cheek’. Me, I’m just a member. Why? This is the only 500 site I’ve found. If my paying membership keeps it `alive & kicking’ great. Rankings never bother me they’re subjective only. My self-esteem doesn’t revolve around them but they do provide an added interest.
I’ve been fortunate already to have met some like-minded people on this site & have enjoyed many good games, both in the Members only Rooms & the Public rooms.
Robbie, hope we get to play with or against each other, think it might be fun. That’s why I play! |
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Kate i competely agree
i think
hmm
ok agree with some
not all
uh
never mind |
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Steve2, you're obviously a decisive gentleman...perhaps....maybe....unsure...we'll see.....yes? no?
Anyone who can make me laugh is ok in my book.
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Hi Kate. I think you might find my entire post was "tongue-in-cheek"! :) Anyway, welcome aboard and I look forward to a game very soon.
I rarely play ATF, being pretty much strictly CC, but each to their own. Anyway, for the benefit of yourself and any other new members, herewith some lowdown on a few site conventions which I hope you'll find helpful. As a general rule (which doesn't apply to all players, and no doubt others will also have stuff to contribute), you'll find the following conventions on the members' side of the site (for once I'm being serious):
With the exception of ATF, which is a version perfected by member Bryce, the vast majority of elo games in members, easily 95%-plus, are Club Classic format. The "Classic 500" option is not used by most members because of where Open sits in the bidding table. You might see the odd game of Turbo but very rarely. Custom is sometimes played in non-elo games, where a single player has started solo, or with 2-player, but rarely as a 4-player elo game, and 6-handed games are pretty much never played except when all the participants are a lot drunker than normal.
The following applies to CC calling:
Most players new to members, myself included, arrive having only ever called the joker at 6 for years, but soon adapt to calling aces once they see the benefit. You will always get the odd individual who steadfastly refuses to adopt the convention at first, but until they eventually see the light, they'll often struggle for decent games as most better players will tend to avoid partnering them. In non-members, calling aces at 6 is less common of course. With the exception of a few decent regular players in nons, that's one of the reasons why the average standard of play in non-members is that much lower.
While a small minority of top players - e.g. The 4th and, erm, I'll get back to you on the other names :) - call bird after aces, the majority of regular players tend to call bird first followed by aces in order, at 6. There's also a bit of a weird virus indigenous to New Zealand which used to cause certain inhabitants there to call bird after black aces but before red, or some such. I believe the World Health Organisation have been taking steps to stamp that out and have quarantined most carriers to Stewart Island, but there are still very occasional outbreaks on the North Island. I'm guilty myself of that at times, where if I have first bid with both bird and ace of spades, and a very strong hand which I expect to win the bidding, I'll call the ace first to see what everyone else has got, but that's an exception and we all have our foibles, some more than others.
Depending on other calls, it's sometimes pertinent to call the bird at 7 also, but generally not aces. The exception to that is in NT bidding, where, as long as you and your partner are on the same wavelength, you can get up to all sorts of mischief calling aces, kings and even queens right up to 10, and you'll no doubt come across that in due course. When it works it works well and when it fails it fails spectacularly. As a general rule though, I'd forget everything you've been taught about bidding aces at 7 and 8 in ATF, when playing CC.
Be very careful with interpretation of 7 spades calls, as it doesn't necessarily mean that your p wants Misere. It can be a call-off by your p if you've called an ace or bird and they have nothing, or it could mean your p actually wants 7 spades. The only way to know (or nearly know) is by getting to know your p's game. There's a thread in forum called "Who calls 7 spades for Misere?", but even half of that is a pack of lies, I've found in practice. Some players will jump to an 8 spades strength call to avoid confusion, which is good as long as you can make 8 tricks of course.
You're quite correct that 9 spades straight up means you want Open. Many players will "make their own way" to Misere without flagging it up so-obviously by using 7 spades. This may involve lying about aces and, less commonly, the bird. Some on site (e.g. Wayne) consider calling 6NT without joker to be a hanging offence. Others have been known to do it with gay abandon as a stepping stone to Misere. While it would be impertinent to name and shame any individuals, one such culprit, and a regular #1 to boot tut tut, has got a two-letter name beginning with "F". (And I used to do it myself, to be fair, until Wayne told me off.)
Under normal circúmstances, I consider my p's failure to call an ace (or worse still, bird), whether they're strong in that suit or not, to be a cardinal sin worthy of expulsion from the site and being forced to do six months community service playing Snap with 3-year-olds. I had a game recently where my p (one of my favourite and regular p's in fact, which threw me all the more), opened up with a jump bid of 8 diamonds or hearts, not declaring that they had the bird. The opposition went Open. I had a nailed-on game-winning 10 spades hand had I known where the bird was, but had to pass. In the end it cost us the game.
Obviously there are exceptions to not calling aces etc, but in my opinion, hiding such information from your partner will cost you more games than win you them, in addition to not doing much for your popularity as a potential p and gaining you a reputation as something of a dodgy bidder, for those who make a habit of it. However, once your p has passed, bid how and what you want.
While it's less common, some will call their strongest ace, in preference to a weaker lower ace, given a choice; Lil2 will use this method at times, for example, another very good player, so "lowest ace first" is not 100% across the site.
Close to the back door, many players call strength at 6 rather than aces. How close depends on the player. Abba, for example, one of the site's best, states clearly on her profile that she calls strength below -250, while some equally-good players will still call bird and aces conventionally even at -490. Ergo, there's no site consensus on this, but it's something to be aware of.
I wouldn't worry about not calling aces for fear of getting left on a 6 call, because it's convention with most players to call you off, using 7 spades if they have nothing better. Notable exceptions are Gollum, who hates using call-offs (he's another top player so that's his prerogative), or where a 7 call would set the opposition up for a game-winning Misere bid. As always, "the scores dictate the bidding". But in general, while it's sometimes best to get left on 6, it's more commonly a right pain in the ar$e when you've got a cracking and/or potentially game-winning hand, in my humble opinion.
Hope this hasn't confused you too much, and always remember, it's okay to lie sometimes. And automatons rarely make it to #1; ask Huey, Luey and Duey.
As there are many players better and more experienced than myself on the site, you may well find others who will disagree with some or all of what I've put, but anyway, that's how I see it.
Somebody has obviously stolen Steve's password, if you thought the person you were talking to was a gentlemen. It was probably Toby you were conversing with, in fact.
Bit of a long post, I've just noticed. Bryce, what's the name of your publisher?
Good luck! |
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